The MMA/Martial Arts/Fighting thread.

[Spartan]

very true RR. However, you and I both know regardless of what "sect" you practice, there are principles common in them all. Even if you believe in the concepts vs. original, either one is NOT a mix and match of techniques.

Agreed or disagreed, it doesn’t matter. I know what I have been training in, and its NOT a mix and match martial art. (and that’s training in both the concepts and original JKD). The opinion you have Spartan regarding JKD is exactly why Guro Dan started to do seminars back in the 1980s – to show people Kali/Silat/Muay Thai and to shed light on what Jun Fan JKD really is.

cheers

Kali, Silat and Muay Thai have no basis on what makes JKD what it is. If you look at the simple fact of how JKD was developed, it was various styles and techniques Bruce went through to find out what HE felt worked and what should be discarded. Simple as that it because a "mix and match". If it fit Bruce's guide lines, it stayed, if not, he discarded it. For the simple techniques of a stance, do you not realize that his movement is based of boxing and wing chun "shuffling"? Do you not see the application of his side stance as based on Fencing? The master of my system TRAINED Bruce in Kenpo, and was a part of MAKING JKD what it became. I can see easily in some of the JKD "techniques" the basis of stances, kicks, etc from Kenpo and the hand work of Chinese boxing. To know that parts of Bruce's system were aquired from Kenpo and Chinese Boxing shows it was mix and match to Bruce's ideal of what would be effective. You can doubt all you like the fact that it is, but if you look at the systems Bruce trained in, and how the techniques of JKD work, you would see it. Bruce was a great thinker and philosopher, so yes, his mentality gave JKD it's essence and identity. But the fact is pick apart the techniques, the stances, etc and you'll see base from many other locations.

[RenegadeRows]

Yes, Bruce took techniques (and ideas) from (I beleive) 26 different styles, that included everything from fencing, western boxing and judo to karate, kung fu and muay thai.

But the driving force of JKD is not it's techniques, it's the concepts of training attributes and its philosophies on martial arts in general. If you studied all of the 26 styles and mastered them, you will still not have mastered JKD. It's totally different.

[jaymdubbs]

pissed, i typed a long paragraph and then my login timed out. sweet

[Spartan]

Yes, Bruce took techniques (and ideas) from (I beleive) 26 different styles, that included everything from fencing, western boxing and judo to karate, kung fu and muay thai.

But the driving force of JKD is not it's techniques, it's the concepts of training attributes and its philosophies on martial arts in general. If you studied all of the 26 styles and mastered them, you will still not have mastered JKD. It's totally different.

I don't disagree with that. I understand that JKD is concept based, a philosophy if you will. I understand what Bruce was trying to accomplish, and I applaud him for it. Mastering numerous martial arts I realize was not his objective, but to find what worked for him in what situations the best.

But in the end, what he did was take all these numerous techniques, all these ideals of the arts, and go through them and use what he felt worked best for him and discarded what he thought wasn't worth keeping. That right there is pick and choose. Can't be any clearer.

I also understand that JKD has different applications to different people and different arts. Techniques that work for ME and which I feel are effective based on numerous factors may not be true for you. I understand this, as my systems grand master trained Bruce in Kenpo and assisted, albiet a minor role, in the evolution of JKD.

I'm not discounting Bruce in his thinking, or his effectiveness, but end of the day, he picked and chose what he felt worked from various arts. That was my point and it stands.

[jaymdubbs]

You are entitlted to your opinion, however, coming from someone in the JKD community, it is incorrect. I'll repeat JKD is NOT a martial art buffet as you sound like you are saying. I think our definition of pick and choose maybe different and that is what is getting lost in translation.

Quote from Tim Tackett and Chris Kent's book Jun Fan JKD the textbook

"Lets say a person learns as many different martial arts as possible. He may study Western boxing, Wing Chun, Kali, Savate, Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu, and Pentjak silat. Lets say he takes what works for hime from these various styles. Is what he ends up with JKD? Not necessarily. JKD is more than just an electic martial art. It is more than just grabbing techniques from various martial arts. It is more than an accumulation of techniques. There must be a common thread. In Fact, JKD can be partially defined as a search for a common thread. There must be a common thread, an alaysis and a concept of what will work for you."


Case in point - take the technique Pak Sao from wing chun. It means slap and hit. this "technique" is found in kali, silat, mantis, choy lee fut and a few other martial arts. all the arts execute this differently, but essentially its the same damn thing. The principle behind a pak sao or slap hit is to remove the obstruction so your attack can follow a straight line to the target. Regardless of style, the technique has the same CORE principles (and this is what bruce was interested in)

THIS IS WHAT BRUCE WAS DOING. FINDING THE COMMON THREAD or PRINCIPLE BEHIND VARIOUS TECHNIQUES to make it so he could express it himself. Look how many ways there are to kick. Look how many ways there are to punch. Bruce stated that as long as we as humans have 2 arms and 2 legs theres only so many different ways we can initiate an attack.

To clarify, Bruce RESEARCHED 26 different arts. He didnt take techniques from 26 different arts.

He did not pick and chose, he extensively researched and economized the motion to be extremely effective at executing ANY technique or motion.

From what I understand, Bruce never trained in Kenpo because he was already better than any of Ed Parker's blackbelts while he was discovered at the long beach tournament. Thats why almost most of BL's chinatown students were former kenpo blackbelts. of course, theres always 2 sides to any story. i got that info from an ed parker blackbelt who left the system for JKD. go figure



In the end, I dont expect to force my beliefs on you. You have a few misconceptions of JKD that I wish I could have fixed it. However, there are some aspects you do have a firm grasp of., so im going to leave it at that.

[Spartan]

You are entitlted to your opinion, however, coming from someone in the JKD community, it is incorrect. I'll repeat JKD is NOT a martial art buffet as you sound like you are saying. I think our definition of pick and choose maybe different and that is what is getting lost in translation.

Quote from Tim Tackett and Chris Kent's book Jun Fan JKD the textbook

"Lets say a person learns as many different martial arts as possible. He may study Western boxing, Wing Chun, Kali, Savate, Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu, and Pentjak silat. Lets say he takes what works for hime from these various styles. Is what he ends up with JKD? Not necessarily. JKD is more than just an electic martial art. It is more than just grabbing techniques from various martial arts. It is more than an accumulation of techniques. There must be a common thread. In Fact, JKD can be partially defined as a search for a common thread. There must be a common thread, an alaysis and a concept of what will work for you."


Case in point - take the technique Pak Sao from wing chun. It means slap and hit. this "technique" is found in kali, silat, mantis, choy lee fut and a few other martial arts. all the arts execute this differently, but essentially its the same damn thing. The principle behind a pak sao or slap hit is to remove the obstruction so your attack can follow a straight line to the target. Regardless of style, the technique has the same CORE principles (and this is what bruce was interested in)

THIS IS WHAT BRUCE WAS DOING. FINDING THE COMMON THREAD or PRINCIPLE BEHIND VARIOUS TECHNIQUES to make it so he could express it himself. Look how many ways there are to kick. Look how many ways there are to punch. Bruce stated that as long as we as humans have 2 arms and 2 legs theres only so many different ways we can initiate an attack.

To clarify, Bruce RESEARCHED 26 different arts. He didnt take techniques from 26 different arts.

He did not pick and chose, he extensively researched and economized the motion to be extremely effective at executing ANY technique or motion.

From what I understand, Bruce never trained in Kenpo because he was already better than any of Ed Parker's blackbelts while he was discovered at the long beach tournament. Thats why almost most of BL's chinatown students were former kenpo blackbelts. of course, theres always 2 sides to any story. i got that info from an ed parker blackbelt who left the system for JKD. go figure



In the end, I dont expect to force my beliefs on you. You have a few misconceptions of JKD that I wish I could have fixed it. However, there are some aspects you do have a firm grasp of., so im going to leave it at that.

My point in stating JKD as a "pick and choose" isn't a "buffet" idea. I believe understanding between the points was lost. Bruce took, as you stated, was effective and what worked in his estimation from various sources. Yes, there is only a matter of ways to throw a kick, or a punch, hench the phrase "a punch is a punch a kick is a kick". That's almost a mantra in martial arts. I said JKD was such, because it's based on techniques from styles that are thousands of years old, and while it may be an evolution of martial arts, it's basis is rooted on the past. I have the highest respect for martial arts, Bruce Lee, and anyone who chooses to practice and find the way which works best for them. Opinions will always vary, hench human nature. You live you learn. Only way to do it.

[RenegadeRows]

What do you guys think of kenpo???

Got my brown belt in it, then i got lazy and never went for my black.

Good system IMO. It was my first 'style', where I got my roots from.

It was the parker system, huk planas lineage.

[jaymdubbs]

I would agree it is one of the better traditional MA's. In terms of traditional MA though, my heart is content with Silat and Kali.

[RenegadeRows]

I would agree it is one of the better traditional MA's. In terms of traditional MA though, my heart is content with Silat and Kali.

Technically it's traditional, I guess it depends on the school.

My particular kenpo school had us go on a field trip and shoot pistols at a range (lol.) A few of the guys at the school were cops, and the sensei thought it was a good thing to learn how to do (it is/was.)

[jaymdubbs]

always a good thing to learn. my brother is a cop, and my old JKD instructor was a cop, so I was able to learn how to shoot (not to mention the rifles i shot with my grandpa growing up)

[Spartan]

Technically it's traditional, I guess it depends on the school.

My particular kenpo school had us go on a field trip and shoot pistols at a range (lol.) A few of the guys at the school were cops, and the sensei thought it was a good thing to learn how to do (it is/was.)

I don't see how a sensei would think using a gun would be a good thing to learn. Ours made particular points against weapons, seeing as being disarmed is always a possibility. We had a green belt in kenpo (tracy's system) who was a kali/escrima instructor. The question came up and the green belt said he'd have no problem beating the school teacher (7th black kenpo). Within two-three moves on numerous attempts and various techniques, the 7th black EASILY disarmed the attacker. It was rediculous. Learning is always a good thing, but realizing most people are killed with their own weapons sticks with you. A fun exercise to learn proper shooting, but unless you're doing it as a profession (police, military, etc), I'd stick to using my hands and feet as the only weapons. True, someone could rip off my arm and beat me with it but highly unlikely.

[jaymdubbs]

Thats interesting. Ive seen similar situations and I've seen both outcomes - someone being disarmed and the person with a weapon prevailing. Plain and simple when a weapon is involved there is no predicting what will happen, so train both with and with out, against and not against. I know for a fact know if i tried to disarm an experienced escrimador id be dead in about 2 seconds. so until i become good enough to disarm, id like to know how to equalize the situation.

[Spartan]

Thats interesting. Ive seen similar situations and I've seen both outcomes - someone being disarmed and the person with a weapon prevailing. Plain and simple when a weapon is involved there is no predicting what will happen, so train both with and with out, against and not against. I know for a fact know if i tried to disarm an experienced escrimador id be dead in about 2 seconds. so until i become good enough to disarm, id like to know how to equalize the situation.

Weapons (escrima/kali/etc) were treated as nothing more than an extension of the arm. You know how to immobilize an arm, you more time than not could immobilze the weapon. That was how we were taught, and how we prepared for the situation. Though our sensei made the point, best to turn and run then to tempt fate.

[jaymdubbs]

Any instructor I have had has also said its best to run. Youre going to have those one in a million chances, so its best to know how. That is why I am constantly researching different arts and their weapon delivery to learn their ranges and how to counter. Kali is only one of many extremely efficient systems that has phenomonal weapons work AND empty hands. I know disarms and arm immobilizations, but I am nowhere near efficient or fast enough yet to pull them off 100 percent power and speed. (Empty hands vs. empty hands def., but not against weapons)