The MMA/Martial Arts/Fighting thread.

[Seroph4x]

btw, my style of taekwondo is very effective, probably the best "taekwondo" class out there in respect to producting top class "street fighters" as in they can fuck up people with their well rounded skills. they all do weights and what not too, of course, thats what can separate a mmaer from a average street fighter too, both have skills, but the other has more strength.

[jaymdubbs]

i get confused when you say well rounded taekwondo. as a style, TKD is not well rounded. other skills from other systems are incorporated so it loses whatever TKD was in it. TKD has a structure, and if you are as well rounded as you say then you arent doing TKD, you are doing something else.

Taking bits of martial arts herre and there isnt the same thing as engulfing yourself in a martial art to learn the ESSENCE of what the style has to offer. practicing TKD and incorporating a muay thai round house and saying you are well versed in either doesnt fly because in order to properly execute a MT roundhouse the structure must change if you are in a TKD stance. (in no way am i saying you are doing this, im just bringing up a point many martial artists get into)

to be honest, when i hear TKD, the first thing that comes to mind is phenomal kicking. fast, crisp, and powerful. however, well rounded and economical doesnt come to mind (i understand that your instructor teaches you other things as well). as a martial art TKD is great, but most of its effectiveness is lost in relation both to street conflicts AND mma .

probably the MOST pressing question i have is if your instructor has trained in X amount of martial arts, including BJJ, why the heck is he still teaching TKD? most people realize the ineffectiveness of the forms and stop teaching them as you cant apply them to most real world situations.

in no way is this intended to be offensive, but im just curious, thats all

[Seroph4x]

hey normal questions i get it all the time. can answer all of them, but to put it simply, i dont really know why master Cheah (my master) still focuses on TKD. the reason i guess is that he's done it the longest, 35 years, so we do the patterns and stuff. i just use whats effective in terms of kicking, and he teaches us the patterns in tkd, and some good shit from tkd, as well as heaps of other stuff from other styles, when u been doing it 4 + years and practise at home and personal lessions u tend to get fairly well rounded.

im aware i need to do a extra, stand alone class of bjj and muay thai if i want to get onto the next level though, correct bro

seriuosy, ud enjoy our class...its not the usual TKD u see...hope that explained it.

[RenegadeRows]

Once you master a style you will be a good fighter, doesn't matter what the style is. i've seen a tv show where some bad ass TKD guys from S. Korea put on a show ... and they looked at the top of their game.

[jaymdubbs]

Once you master a style you will be a good fighter, doesn't matter what the style is. i've seen a tv show where some bad ass TKD guys from S. Korea put on a show ... and they looked at the top of their game.

I am sorry to say, this isn’t true. Mastering a style does NOT make you a good fighter. The fighter dictates if he/she is a good fighter. For example; I entered a kickboxing tournament after only 8 months of training (I was 20), and since there weren’t enough competitors, they had to join the beginners, novices and blackbelts together. 3 fights later I won the tournament and crowned champ. I had to beat 2 blackbelts or red sashes, one in Hun Gar Gung fu and one in karate. I smoked them.


You are right in saying that it doesn’t matter what style though. A good fighter can fight in all ranges and dictate the distance in relation to the fighting measure. A TKD man will suck on the ground and in grappling range. A BJJ man will suck at stand up. A boxer cant kick for crap etc. etc. Mastering BJJ makes you a good fighter in BJJ, but you still cant dicate a fight in the other ranges.

A definition of a good fighter is one who can fight in all ranges. A lot of styles lack some of the ranges, or aren’t very effective in some areas.

Also, don’t believe everything you see on TV. It sure looks impressive, but it’s a whole different ballgame when it’s a fight (sanctioned or a street fight)

im aware i need to do a extra, stand alone class of bjj and muay thai if i want to get onto the next level though, correct bro
seriuosy, ud enjoy our class...its not the usual TKD u see...hope that explained it

Appreciate the invite, but ive seen so many types of “tkd” or “karate” that incorporate other styles into them that I know some of them tend to me a smorsaborg of styles. The mere fact that forms are involved immediately creates a bias in me unfortunately. But if it works for you, sweet. I on the other hand have been spoiled by JKD, MMA, and BJJ so the mere thought of a “form” makes me laugh.

[Spartan]

Then you don't understand the "purpose" of kata and forms. They haven't been around for thousands of years just for the sake of it. Forms allow the mind to see patterns, to control breathing, to apply focus. That's why forms are actually some of the most important aspects of martial arts. You don't see the application since you "laugh" at them.

You make reference to a Muay Thai roundhouse compared to the TKD roundhouse. Same thing. Because you are basing it off a stance means nothing. A kick is a kick regardless. Axe kick, crescent, sweeps, all the same regardless of your style. TKD just happens to favor kicking more than punches, throws, etc. Most martial arts are made up of the same basic foundations and build according to what works for them, region of development, etc. Look at Wu Shu, Northern Shaolin, Chinese Boxing. All came from China, each from a different region. Same applies to TKD, Hapkido, Karate, Ju-Jitsu, etc. Jeet Kun Do is just a pic and choose martial art of what Bruce Lee found to work for him in the arts he had mastered. Same thing with "Brazilian Ju-Jitsu". BJJ wasn't anything really until the Gracies made it known. Even then, it's not "true" Ju-Jitsu. It's a watered down version of what the Gracies chose to take so they took less physical abuse as compared to stand up.

You say you beat two black belts and a red sash from other arts in a kickboxing tournament. That doesn't prove anything. You fought based on regulated rules, set attacks, and other factors which limited the martial artists styles if not based on kickboxing. That's like giving a person all these tools and saying wait, you can only use this and this. That's crap in my opinion. Full contact karate, where technique is allowed is FAR different than kickboxing tourneys. I've fought in both, I know. I can't judge your skill, since I've never seen you fight, and don't know anything about you. But you take the "stereotypical" martial arts, (ie. JKD, BJJ, etc.) and seem to mock other peoples'. TKD in it's own right is a fine martial art. Again, it's been around over 3000 years, so they must know something.

I've studied kenpo karate, greco-roman wrestling, hapkido and akido. While I might not feel certain martial arts are not as good as others, I am always looking to see how I can apply new found knowledge, different angles and techniques. If you fail to learn, you learn to fail.

[Spartan]

I dont agree with this either. The time simply isnt there to prioritize such "trival" values in this type of situation. Hopefully your training has allowed you learn reactions so the best reaction is programed in the nervous system. If you say "im going to knock someone out" chances are you wont. you take whatever the opponent gives you, or you take it before he gets chance to.

There is always time to analyze an attack. You look for indicators of what a person will do. Very few people are quick enough or controlled enough to do something without their body giving away a sign of it. Also, if you know what you are looking at, you know how to counter or attack it based on the circumstances. Generally, if a person's shoulders shift, expect a punch. Hips shift, a kick. Body position gets lower, feet change perspective, etc, expect a shoot. Reading a fighter isn't terribly difficult, even in a street fight.

i think its important to distinguish something. a professional fighter (typically more MMA type fighter) will come up with a strategy to employ, and apply those principles as the fight goes on (IE my strengths vs. his weakness)

Exactly my point, though any smart fighter would do the same be it pro or street. Also, MMA isn't the only kind of pro fighter that has to develop a strategy to combat an opponent.

in my honest opinon, having a STRATEGY and knowing your strenghths and weaknesses is NOT the same type of thought as an actual attack. although my stand up is great and my ground game needs some work, im still going to react the same way to a grappler inorder to keep from getting taken down. im just going to react. thinking about fight (attacks/defense) and knowing strengths and weakness are two different things IMO[/QUOTE]

Have to disagree with you here. You base a strategy ON your strengths and weaknesses. A strategy of a stand up fighter would be vastly different from a ground fighter. Also, if you'd react the same regardless of the fighter, then your strategy appears to be lacking. I wouldn't prepare for say a Matt Hughes the same I would as say a Ken Shamrock. Even though you KNOW they are both going to shoot on you at one point, your preparations can't be the same. Also, since their stand up game is different from each other, you again can't stay in one frame of mind.

You stated that you'd adapt and take what a person gives or what is open, yet you state you'd react the same to two different fighters. Each fighter possesses different strengths and weaknesses, even if from the same style, same experience, etc because the fighter mentality and ability as far as speed and strength are never the same. So not learning to fight based on your strengths and working to avoid weaknesses while capitalizing on the opponent's defeats the purpose.

[jaymdubbs]

Then you don't understand the "purpose" of kata and forms. They haven't been around for thousands of years just for the sake of it. Forms allow the mind to see patterns, to control breathing, to apply focus. That's why forms are actually some of the most important aspects of martial arts. You don't see the application since you "laugh" at them.

LOL. Disagree here. I see the application. In fact I know some forms myself.
It is my personal opinion and fellow JKD practicioners that people tend to be blinded by the pattern. This is what made Bruce Lee and his followers so controversial. In fact, all my JKD instructors come from traditional martial arts (black belts in Kenpo, Aikido, karate, etc) and on the record all of them have said katas and forms havent done them any good. Granted, that is the JKD community for you. Its just that forms arent for me. Maybe i should have clarified that if they work for others great, but they arent for me.

You make reference to a Muay Thai roundhouse compared to the TKD roundhouse. Same thing. Because you are basing it off a stance means nothing. A kick is a kick regardless. Axe kick, crescent, sweeps, all the same regardless of your style. TKD just happens to favor kicking more than punches, throws, etc.

Yes, a kick is a kick. But the power, speed and timing is WAY DIFFERENT depending on the stance. In TKD and Karate, there tends to be a chamber with the knee. This allows for radical snap power but lacks follow through. In order to facilate that power, a karate/TKD stylist would have to drastically fix his structure to pull of the thai kick EFFICENTLY.

Jeet Kun Do is just a pic and choose martial art of what Bruce Lee found to work for him in the arts he had mastered. Same thing with "Brazilian Ju-Jitsu". BJJ wasn't anything really until the Gracies made it known. Even then, it's not "true" Ju-Jitsu. It's a watered down version of what the Gracies chose to take so they took less physical abuse as compared to stand up.

You couldnt be further from the truth I'm afraid. JKD is NOT just a pic and choose martial art. This a misconception of people who dont know anything about it. JKD is heavily rooted in Jun Fan Gung Fu (bruce lees style that he taught, based on scientific research of the mechanics of punching, kicking, grappling, etc.). What's true ju-jitsu? I think the gracies did exactly what bruce did. They took something and made it work for them. who is anyone to say its watered down? theres BJJ people beating "true" jujitsu men all over the place and vice versa. its not the style, but the fighter.

You say you beat two black belts and a red sash from other arts in a kickboxing tournament. That doesn't prove anything. You fought based on regulated rules, set attacks, and other factors which limited the martial artists styles if not based on kickboxing. That's like giving a person all these tools and saying wait, you can only use this and this. That's crap in my opinion. Full contact karate, where technique is allowed is FAR different than kickboxing tourneys. I've fought in both, I know. I can't judge your skill, since I've never seen you fight, and don't know anything about you. But you take the "stereotypical" martial arts, (ie. JKD, BJJ, etc.) and seem to mock other peoples'. TKD in it's own right is a fine martial art. Again, it's been around over 3000 years, so they must know something.

I stated that to prove my point that mastering a style doesnt make you a good fighter. Not the best example, considering i dont go out and finger jab people in the eyes and throat like you hardcore martial artists (joke). Stereotypical? Hardly. I've experienced "traditional" martial arts - wing chun, northern longfist, aikido. And i have come to find JKD points to the truth for me. I couldnt find truth in flowery and ornamental styles that teach partial truths, based on OTHER peoples movements 300 years ago. So im sorry if i enjoy EXPRESSING myself instead of someone elses movements.

I've studied kenpo karate, greco-roman wrestling, hapkido and akido. While I might not feel certain martial arts are not as good as others, I am always looking to see how I can apply new found knowledge, different angles and techniques. If you fail to learn, you learn to fail.

So far i've studied Silat, Kali/Escrima, Jun Fan JKD, BJJ, Tai Chi, Northern Longfist, Aikido, Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo, Wing Chun. And out of all of those, JKD is the only one (besides BJJ, Kali & MT) that keep me longing for more.


[quote=spartan]There is always time to analyze an attack. You look for indicators of what a person will do. Very few people are quick enough or controlled enough to do something without their body giving away a sign of it. Also, if you know what you are looking at, you know how to counter or attack it based on the circumstances. Generally, if a person's shoulders shift, expect a punch. Hips shift, a kick. Body position gets lower, feet change perspective, etc, expect a shoot. Reading a fighter isn't terribly difficult, even in a street fight.[\quote\

maybe this got lost in translation as well. when someone telegraphs a movement, you will react to it. You take whatever your opponent gives you. Maybe instead of calling JKD a pick your style, trying doing it for 3 years and youll learn some economy of motion and NON TELEGRAPHIC movements. we constantly drill this for that reason.

Have to disagree with you here. You base a strategy ON your strengths and weaknesses. A strategy of a stand up fighter would be vastly different from a ground fighter. Also, if you'd react the same regardless of the fighter, then your strategy appears to be lacking. I wouldn't prepare for say a Matt Hughes the same I would as say a Ken Shamrock. Even though you KNOW they are both going to shoot on you at one point, your preparations can't be the same. Also, since their stand up game is different from each other, you again can't stay in one frame of mind.

You stated that you'd adapt and take what a person gives or what is open, yet you state you'd react the same to two different fighters. Each fighter possesses different strengths and weaknesses, even if from the same style, same experience, etc because the fighter mentality and ability as far as speed and strength are never the same. So not learning to fight based on your strengths and working to avoid weaknesses while capitalizing on the opponent's defeats the purpose.

i dont quite understand what you meant by this. I know you will have a different strategy based you your opponents strengths and weaknesses based on what yours are. maybe you heard me wrong, but i said i know my ground game is lacking, so i will react the same way to a grappler when he shoots in- im going to sprawl. i would sprawl if a stand up guy shot in on my too. for me, my comfort zone is stand up, so i will employ a strategy to stay standing. theres only a few ways to avoid being shot in at, but either way i would train them to better my chances of not getting taken down.

whats wrong with reacting the same way to different fighters? it depends on the fighters strengths and weaknesses like i stated above. matt hughes punches and i react. maybe a parry or sidestep. ken shamrock punches and i react. mabe a parry or maybe i shoot in because he left an opening for an overcompensating cross. if the attack illicits the same response, then so be it. of course youd want to employ different strategies against different fighters, but reactions make up only part of the equation of a total strategy. PLUS if you think about how the fight should be, it will never turn out like that. Ive competed in exhibition MMA fights, so you dont need to preach to me about strategies.

[Spartan]

Well, rather than prolonging this give and take that will never resolve itself seeing as we have different views on martial arts, all resulting from discussing a 5 second knockout, I'm just going to kindly disagree on your views. I've heard alot of the same from the JKD community, and if it works for them, good. I've studied Bruce Lee's philosophies on combat, origins for JKD, and vast other martial arts/combat references. I respect what he did and what he found out through trial and error. I believe that a fighter fits a style, not the style fitting the fighter. Meaning, you find what works and use it to the best of your ability. I just have to say a few things then I'm done. Firstly, JKD IS a pick and choose martial art:

"Jeet Kune Do is NOT a system. A system is a formula or an established procedure used to attain an end. The Do in JKD means Art. An art is open to interpretation and expression. In Bruce's own words in a letter to Hawkins Cheung "No, I did not mean to create another style. JKD started out as my expression of Lop Sao."

"Bruce as was known, studied Wing Chun, some Northern styles, T'ai Chi (under his father), and informally studied Ju-Jitsu under Professor Wally Jay (in fact it was Wally Jay who first suggested a style that would encompass all styles). He also sat in on or worked with people in many other systems while developing the ideas and stances that would later lead to forming JKD."

"The heart of the JKD system is NOT a combat modified Chinese-American Wing Chun Gung Fu. This is a big misconception to all except his Wing Chun friends and those of his first students. Bruce's and Wing Chun's definition of modification are different then that perceived by most of his students and the Western mind."

"Wing Chun set's itself up for "modification". It is meant to grow and develop with the student and become an "expression" of the student. Wing Chun allows change for the sake of adaptability and survival. Because of his many personal experiences and lack of knowledge in certain areas of Wing Chun (he only knew the first two "instructional" forms, and a limited number of the wooden dummy forms), he came up with his "personal" solutions by using his own ideas and guidance mixed with those he had already learned, further developing his own "personal" wing chun tools. This personal wing chun he called Jun Fan to his early students. Jun Fan was Bruce's Chinese name."

"As Bruce went on, he applied the ideas he learned in Wing Chun (Economy of motion, Non telegraphic, balance, among others) to all that he came across and picked up."

"What Bruce meant when he said he saw limitations in Wing Chun was that he saw limitations in some of the physical techniques, and the way they were performed. He then "adapted" and "modified" them to the situation at hand which is what Wing Chun allows for in the first place. He also added different techniques to his Wing Chun one's, for solutions to situations that he felt the wing chun techniques weren't designed for (Alot of times, it was because he had lacked the training to correctly apply the Wing Chun techniques. Both solutions would be correct though. It's what get's the job done that counts). When he added these new techniques or sometimes theory's, he made sure they fit with the guidances he had already established in Wing Chun. So if a new technique landed, but say he was to far off balance, he threw it out. If the new solution he came up with involved to many movements or did not follow a simple enough path, then it was thrown out. If an concept opened a new view or theory on how to apply a solution to a situation, and it did not conflict with all of the previous "guides" that he knew worked, then it was added to his theories. This is what is meant by, and was later called "absorbing what is useful". The only thing that was "modified" were the actual physical wing chun techniques. Again, this is what Wing Chun adaptability sets itself up for in some cases."

"As said earlier, Bruce watched Mohammed for alot of distancing and balance strategy. He took a mixture of boxing and fencing footwork because he felt it was the most non telegraphic (one of the guides to remember). It was his expression of being non telegraphic. This is not to say it is the ONLY way. Because to admit that, is to go against the ideas of learning in JKD. If Bruce thought that the boxing footwork was the only "way" to move, then he would have been stuck, and out of luck. But he experimented and saw it wasn't. Boxers don't need to worry about kicks. People in regular fights do. So he found that a "modified" side stance that looks like a cross between a boxing and fencing stance worked. It was actually a cross of a boxing, fencing, and "Wing Chun side stance" because he still used many of the hand techniques from Wing Chun that used the centerline principle. He used a shuffling movement that was a cross between a boxing and fencing because he felt that was the most non telegraphic way to move. All of these being EXPRESSIONS of the principles he learned. If something had happened to show him that maybe he should be doing something a little different, then he would have changed it. "

As you can see, JKD IS a pick and choose art. Bruce chose to incorperate things from other sources to "create" JKD, and modify Wing Chun since he not mastered it before leaving China. However, like I said, if it works for you, great. Also, as you can see, JKD isn't the only source to use economy of motion, non-telegraphic movements, etc. However, the body is never fully non-telegraphic, and through training, you would still know what to read on a fighter. Good luck with the MMA, and advancing your martial arts experiences.

[jaymdubbs]

Im not even going to bother explaining real Jun Fan JKD. Quoting books and websites does nothing to substantiate JKD is a pick and chose martial art. All i say is that im sorry you dont understand. Start training in JKD and maybe youll have a better idea.

FYI- It isnt JKD unless the person has training Jun Fan Gung Fu. Without this, theres no way you could understand that its NOT a pick and chose martial art

[Spartan]

Im not even going to bother explaining real Jun Fan JKD. Quoting books and websites does nothing to substantiate JKD is a pick and chose martial art. All i say is that im sorry you dont understand. Start training in JKD and maybe youll have a better idea.

FYI- It isnt JKD unless the person has training Jun Fan Gung Fu. Without this, theres no way you could understand that its NOT a pick and chose martial art

Considering that the source of the information is Dan Inosanto, the first and only person Bruce himself ranked to be capable to teach JKD makes it substantial. Jun Fan Gung Fu is simply Bruce Lee's Gung Fu, Jun Fan being his chinese name. Gung Fu, or Wing Chun as he was taught, evolves with the person. There is structure and set moves, positions, etc that Bruce took and decided what he thought worked and didn't. Then upon that he added positioning from boxing, fencing, karate, northern shaolin, and various other arts to develop JKD. JKD does not require you to know Gung Fu, as JKD is an "evolution" of a person and their art. Joe Lewis was a karate black belt who was taught the principles of JKD, yet remained a karate disciple with JKD thinking. JKD itself isn't a style, but a way of thinking, of stripping away what doesn't flow, or work for that person but not based on the set styles or arts a person has learned. Unless your sensei or trainer was taught by Dan Inosanto, then what's to say you've been taught TRUE JKD? An as far as a pick and choose art, considering you pick and choose what moves work from various styles, and what fits into the general guidelines of what Bruce Lee developed into JKD, then yes, it is.

[jaymdubbs]

Funny you mention that, considering I have trained with Guro Dan and many other students under Bruce and his students. You really dont understand. You dont just pick and choose moves. THIS ISNT WHATS BEING DONE AT ALL. True Bruce drew principles and THEORIES from these arts, but he didnt take the move, he took the essence and principle of the technique. That is far from picking and choosing. JKD is not a style buffet as you seem to think it is. JKD as taught by bruce lee requires you to know jun fan gung fu. Simply put, if you dont have the base in jun fan, then you are expressing "spartan's" martial way, not JKD. theres nothing wrong with that, as long as your honest, but to say that JKD is a pick and choose martial art is TOTALLY incorrect.

[Spartan]

Then as it's said, we agree to disgree on this subject.

[RenegadeRows]

I've always liked Paul Vunak's seminars/books/videos.
Lots of kali/arnis in Inosanto's JKD.

JKD is a wonderful art, it's concepts and philosophies are very true and effective. HOWEVER , there is A LOT of misinterpretation since Bruce passed so early. LOTS of people have their own 'sect' of JKD. For example, Linda Lee has her circle of JKD practitioners. I know Dan Inosanto is a big one. Larry Hartsell. James DeMille. Brandon Lee. Shannon Lee. They're all first generation instructors and they all disagree on who's is "The True JKD Philosophy".

JKD is very complex. Ive been studying it for 6 years and I'm still learning. Not only is it fighting, but a philosophy. Keep It Simple Stupid.

I could sit here and type out for you what I think it is, but I'd be wasting my time.

[jaymdubbs]

I've always liked Paul Vunak's seminars/books/videos.
Lots of kali/arnis in Inosanto's JKD.

JKD is a wonderful art, it's concepts and philosophies are very true and effective. HOWEVER , there is A LOT of misinterpretation since Bruce passed so early. LOTS of people have their own 'sect' of JKD. For example, Linda Lee has her circle of JKD practitioners. I know Dan Inosanto is a big one. Larry Hartsell. James DeMille. Brandon Lee. Shannon Lee. They're all first generation instructors and they all disagree on who's is "The True JKD Philosophy".

JKD is very complex. Ive been studying it for 6 years and I'm still learning. Not only is it fighting, but a philosophy. Keep It Simple Stupid.

I could sit here and type out for you what I think it is, but I'd be wasting my time.

very true RR. However, you and I both know regardless of what "sect" you practice, there are principles common in them all. Even if you believe in the concepts vs. original, either one is NOT a mix and match of techniques.

Agreed or disagreed, it doesn’t matter. I know what I have been training in, and its NOT a mix and match martial art. (and that’s training in both the concepts and original JKD). The opinion you have Spartan regarding JKD is exactly why Guro Dan started to do seminars back in the 1980s – to show people Kali/Silat/Muay Thai and to shed light on what Jun Fan JKD really is.

cheers