Introducing - Supplement King's "Black Out" (not controlled labs)

[pu12en12g]

my only issue with this product would be the fact melatonin is included. alot of individuals have adverse reactions to melatonin

I wouldn't say that.. you might be thinking of previous problems with Tryptophan ? With Melatonin, adverse reactions and warnings are referring to high doses (~50mg)... but I totally respect where you are coming from... many assume that it's a "casual" ingredient which isn't the case. It's just highly effective .

[pu12en12g]

Melatonin is a new discovery. It has yet to go through the extensive studies which most hormones and other dietary supplements go through. It seems to have many positive effects on the body.

I want to be crystal clear here. This statement applies to almost every product on the market in the last few years... and yet I respect where you are coming from as far the overall concern, but in no way should Melatonin be at the top of that list.

The "proven" supplements are VERY few:

Caffeine
Creatine
Whey Protein
Etc..

Ironically, caffeine is classified as: "Harmful if swallowed. Experimental teratogen. Irritant in humans. May affect CNS."

I hope you can see where I'm going with this....

The GOOD news for us... (all consumers) is that unlike THOUSANDS of other supplements on the market, we DO have actual human studies on melatonin at various dosages, so from THAT data we can arrive at a preliminary conclusion... including the very key statement:

These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

[jiritt0]

I dont like melatonin as a supplement, I dont think its smart for individuals to use it reguarly, and i think if you have issues falling asleep you should talk to your doctor or visit a sleep lab. By the end of the night on a lifting day I lay in bed and I'm out (unless I have stimulant energy). The only day I take melatonin, is when for some reason my pm dose of stims is keeping me awake, which is very very rare.


my opinion

sleep is a natural pattern. you should not need a pill to put you to sleep. the other aspects of this product are beneficial. to me, the including of melatonin warrants it a no buy. if you can not fall asleep without melatonin, perhaps you should see your doctor and see if you are melatonin deficient. other aspects of a poor diet, stress, and other physio-psychological reasons may warrent the unrest at night time; which in their own respects should be treated individually to develop an overall healthier lifestyle and cure the sleep apena.

maybe, 5-10 years from now, you'll see me writing reseach papers about melatonin I just spent a good 6hours looking at grad schools for health psychology yesterday... hollaar


some random links

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/73/88877.htm

A new study suggests that melatonin supplements may make asthma symptoms worse in people who already suffer from nocturnal asthma, or asthma that naturally worsens at night.


Melatonin is a hormone produced by the brain that helps regulate the body's circadian rhythms, or body clock. Levels of the hormone peak at night, and this association with sleep has lead many to use melatonin supplements as a remedy for jet lag or insomnia.


But melatonin has also been shown to increase inflammation of the airways in animal studies, which can make it harder to breathe. That prompted researchers to look at whether melatonin might play a role in worsening nocturnal asthma symptoms



http://www.webmd.com/content/Article...m?pagenumber=2

The researchers focused on what they call participants' "sleep efficiency." Sleep efficiency was calculated by dividing total sleep time by scheduled time in bed.

When participants were making their own melatonin (as shown by the blood tests), the use of melatonin supplements didn't affect sleep efficiency. But sleep efficiency improved when participants took melatonin supplements while their bodies weren't making melatonin, the study shows.

However, sleep efficiency was best with melatonin made by the body, according to the results.



http://www.webmd.com/content/article/98/104730.htm


Sleep disorders affect 50 million to 70 million people. Insomnia, the most common sleep disorder, plagues up to 12% of adults, say researchers. Children can also be affected. Up to 25% of U.S. kids have sleep problems.

Possible causes include stress, too much caffeine, and other health problems. Shift work and jet lag can also disrupt the body's natural sleep cycle.

---
Klassen and colleagues found that while melatonin may be safe for short-term use (for days or weeks), it's not particularly effective.

They found no evidence that melatonin supplements help insomnia. They also found little to no effect for insomnia due to stress, caffeine or due to other health conditions, such as depression.

One exception may be delayed sleep phase syndrome.

People with that condition have a hard time falling asleep before the wee hours of the night and also have trouble waking in the morning. Short-term melatonin use could help with that particular sleep disorder, say the researchers. This is a long-term problem and different from jet lag, a similar short-term problem.


also an interesting thought;
Melatonin production is affected by light - which means the bodies natural production may have links to SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder) or winter depression in certain regions.

[browndustin]

Melatonin production being affected by light (or lack thereof) is another reason why I think that a strong night-time routine is better than supplementation of any kind (not getting into bodybuilding, just healthy sleep patterns). You can catch me walking around like a zombie, protein shaker in one hand and the other shielding my eyes after 8pm each night. I make sure to get a quiet, dark environment so my body naturally calms down and wants to sleep. If there’s a light on in the house, I’ll squint my eyes and walk over to the light switch to kill it.

I’m not vehemently opposed to melatonin however. I don’t need it, but the deeper sleep that I can get is something that I can’t forgo. I usually take ZMA, WB and often melatonin on workout days/nights for recovery. But for the same reasons you mentioned above, I cycle off of them to let my natural hormones stay in check. AFAIK, I have not been adversely affected by my sleep stack, but this is from clearly bias observations. And I am by no means an expert. I can just say that in all honesty, I’m fortunate enough to not exhibit symptoms of dependency that are noticeable.

If you could post a few more links, I’d like to check them out. I’m at work now so I don’t have any bookmarked pages off hand… it’s ironic, actually more frustrating to find articles like yours and ones that state the exact opposite. Some tote melatonin as a wonderful, safe and natural sleep aid, while others think it’s the black plague. I love “science” lol. But I do as much research as possible so if I can find one study claiming one thing and another claiming a polar extremity then that just makes the day more interesting!

[Controlled Labs]

it’s ironic, actually more frustrating to find articles like yours and ones that state the exact opposite. Some tote melatonin as a wonderful, safe and natural sleep aid, while others think it’s the black plague. I love “science” lol. But I do as much research as possible so if I can find one study claiming one thing and another claiming a polar extremity then that just makes the day more interesting!

thats how all well reviewed compounds are. some studies show one thing and the next study is 180 degrees different. you need to look at the big picture and not at any one specific study.

[pu12en12g]

I dont like melatonin as a supplement, I dont think its smart for individuals to use it reguarly, and i think if you have issues falling asleep you should talk to your doctor or visit a sleep lab.

So if I'm understanding you correctly... essentially you would rather go with:

a) Doctor (valium / trazodone)
b) OTC sleep aid

Side effect profile for common over-the-counter sleep aid:

Includes agitation, anticholinergic side effects such as dry mouth, confusion, dizziness, drowsiness, fatigue, disturbed coordination, irritability, paresthesia, blurred vision, and depression. In overdose, symptoms may include excitement, ataxia, tremor, sinus tachycardia, fever, hallucination, athetosis, convulsions or seizures, hypotension, deep coma, cardiorespiratory collapse, and death. Fixed and dilated pupils are also observed. Gastrointestinal symptoms are less with diphenhydramine
than with other H 1 antagonists.

It's important that we keep things in perspective, and note that with Melatonin we are boosting a naturally occuring hormone, resulting in deeper sleep. There have been studies done on it, so unlike other supplements we aren't "in the dark" with Melatonin. It's CRITICAL to recognize that many melatonin studies were using HUGE doses, resulting in concern and controversy.

They found no evidence that melatonin supplements help insomnia.

Anoecdotal feedback simply destroys this one... I'm not even sure that was worth posting ? I'm not saying that Melatonin isn't controversial, and it's true that studies are often conflicting. In this case we are very lucky to be able to combine studies with anecdotal feedback (this isn't always the case).

[storm shadow]

ingredient profile? pic of supplement? testers?

Looks solid, and if CL helped it must be good, however I would still like to see the more info on it before pulling my credit card out.

[Controlled Labs]

ingredient profile? pic of supplement? testers?

Looks solid, and if CL helped it must be good, however I would still like to see the more info on it before pulling my credit card out.

pic should be ready in about a week. suplement facts was posted on here already I think

[browndustin]

I thought that this was going to be a proprietary blend though? I think that these ingredients have been tried and proven to be effective.

Everyone’s hyped on Cissus, AEE is dope (as per WB at night logs), Longjack’s getting more attention for sure and while controversial melatonin will put you in a deep sleep. It might be something that you more or less have to jump into and try, but I don’t think that there’s any way that Black Out can fail. It will no doubt be effective for putting you in a deep, recuperative sleep. However, I can appreciate any concerns that people have about long term use and hormonal imbalances.

I think that this will be a very powerful night-time supplement, and everyone here has their health/supplementation regimen in check.

[pu12en12g]

It just occured to me, that no cycling recommendation has been discussed which is probably contributing to the confusion. For those using it every day, I would personally recommend cycling off after each bottle... but that's just my opinion.

[jiritt0]

So if I'm understanding you correctly... essentially you would rather go with:

a) Doctor (valium / trazodone)
b) OTC sleep aid

I'd rather fall asleep naturally, or if that does not work get checked for a melatonin deficiency before supplementing with it regularly..

My personal fav sleep aide is THC... a few puffs after a long day and im out. sometimes ill pop in a dvd and fall asleep before it gets to the main menu..

I used to get 8hr a night, and nap everyday at college. now i dont nap cos of work + stimulants but i prolly could if i felt like it. i was just yawnin in the gym earlier, after taking thermal rage + ephedrine HCL about 2-3hr prior..

the one time I did have a period of trouble sleeping i was going through alot personally ( bad break up, a lil stretch of substance abuse, stress from classes, job stress, etc) and i would be downin some nyquil every night.. than it got to the point wher eit was like a joke, i would take some with my roommate just because it was like midnight and neither of us were even tired..

that when I bought the melatonin, and for a stretch i was all bout it, than i started reading some of the down sides of it, and used some logical thinking with my own knowledge from my edumacation, and created my opinion about the whole subject (which I have stated).

Now; I sleep great, and I feel bad for people that cant fall asleep for whatever reason..


the best thing for sleep;
1 - being scheduled so you go to sleep and get up around the same time daily
2 - avoid stimulants/caffeine after 4pm
3 - eat a healthy diet, dont go carbo-crazy at 10pm (especially with sugars)
4 - actually do something during the day, dont sit aorund all day and watch TV or whatever, go to the gym, or a run, put some physical wear on the body so you need sleep

and if you still cant sleep, you more than likely have a sleep disorder, and should consult a licenseced physician to verify it.

ps - i wish there was an auto spell check when you submitted a post.

[browndustin]

A spell check would be nice *glares at Tank*

Mang, I’m not sure if this can be validated or not, but cannabis is said to induce melatonin production. I don’t have any sources to cite because I’m at work (I’d be hung for browsing weed sites), but I’m really, really positive about this!

Mjshroomer (huge in the psilocybin/mushroom/psychedelic community, many, many books and articles) had sent tons of emails to me about cannabis and melatonin relations. I really wish that I kept them. They had awesome references and I’m kicking myself right now. Marijuana + melatonin are very synergistic in practice though, up until the point where you fall asleep. Worth tinkering around for if you’re bored on the weekend or something.

A higher CBN to THC ratio is said to give you the burnt out, couch-locked and narcotic stone that ends up putting folks to sleep. I have some indica like this (as well as potent sativa dominant bud)… next time I am taking melatonin and smoking near my bed-time (a few hours before), I can jot down some notes and see if there’s a considerable difference between the two. I’m still not sure if it’s the higher amount of endocannabinoids that take precedent over controlling sleep or if it’s really more melatonin production… it’s really hard to find studies on cannabis that aren’t bias, weren’t done 40 years ago or tested on ditch weed.

Either way, something you might appreciate and want to ponder about. Most importantly though, in practice it’s nice to have a recreational smoke a few hours before bed and let yourself gently go to sleep. I love keeping both a hard sativa smoke for the day time, as well as a body and mind numbing indica for late at night.

[pu12en12g]

A spell check would be nice *glares at Tank*

Mang, I’m not sure if this can be validated or not, but cannabis is said to induce melatonin production. I don’t have any sources to cite because I’m at work (I’d be hung for browsing weed sites), but I’m really, really positive about this!

Indirectly, it enhances serotonin levels.... ironically, this too... is controversial (like Marijuana itself).

[ddawg91]

I'd rather fall asleep naturally, or if that does not work get checked for a melatonin deficiency before supplementing with it regularly..

My personal fav sleep aide is THC... a few puffs after a long day and im out. sometimes ill pop in a dvd and fall asleep before it gets to the main menu..

I used to get 8hr a night, and nap everyday at college. now i dont nap cos of work + stimulants but i prolly could if i felt like it. i was just yawnin in the gym earlier, after taking thermal rage + ephedrine HCL about 2-3hr prior..

the one time I did have a period of trouble sleeping i was going through alot personally ( bad break up, a lil stretch of substance abuse, stress from classes, job stress, etc) and i would be downin some nyquil every night.. than it got to the point wher eit was like a joke, i would take some with my roommate just because it was like midnight and neither of us were even tired..

that when I bought the melatonin, and for a stretch i was all bout it, than i started reading some of the down sides of it, and used some logical thinking with my own knowledge from my edumacation, and created my opinion about the whole subject (which I have stated).

Now; I sleep great, and I feel bad for people that cant fall asleep for whatever reason..


the best thing for sleep;
1 - being scheduled so you go to sleep and get up around the same time daily
2 - avoid stimulants/caffeine after 4pm
3 - eat a healthy diet, dont go carbo-crazy at 10pm (especially with sugars)
4 - actually do something during the day, dont sit aorund all day and watch TV or whatever, go to the gym, or a run, put some physical wear on the body so you need sleep

and if you still cant sleep, you more than likely have a sleep disorder, and should consult a licenseced physician to verify it.

ps - i wish there was an auto spell check when you submitted a post.

What is confusing here is that you are arguing against using a supplement for sleep aid but yet you take multiple stimulants to give you energy and enhance your workout that can have a negative side effects on you also. It is sort of the same thing.

I understand your concerns but you are kind of contradicting yourself.

[browndustin]

Indirectly, it enhances serotonin levels.... ironically, this too... is controversial (like Marijuana itself).

Controversial, very much so… I had almost forgotten the affects that it plays on serotonin levels as well (so caught up with melatonin). But it’s true, and there are lots of studies about it. Thanks for pointing that out too.