Another PW ?

[Stuart Rudolph]

Boiling? .........Uh No

Why would you boil them anyways?

I concur, why would you want to anyway? If boiling BB supplements was proven to enhance effectiveness, I'm sure it would have been well documented. And as much documentation that PU12 posts, he surely would have posted that. Yes?

[jiritt0]

I concur, why would you want to anyway? If boiling BB supplements was proven to enhance effectiveness, I'm sure it would have been well documented. And as much documentation that PU12 posts, he surely would have posted that. Yes?

i never asked if it enhanced effectiveness, i asked if it hindered effectiveness. it enhances mixing.

[pu12en12g]

Heating up creatine to fully dissolve it was the original preferred method, so right now I'm with Blap on this one... I've been looking into this topic... but haven't replied yet because I'm not sure.

Heating up BCAA / EAA never occured to me before

[pu12en12g]

The following table gives the decomposition tempertures for each amino acid;
the values are obtained from The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics
(Physical Constants of Organic Compounds, C-65 to C-576).

Amino Acid Temperature
-------------- ---------------
Alanine 314
Arginine 244
Asparagine 236
Aspartic Acid/
Aspartate 324
Cysteine 240
Glutamic Acid/
Glutamate 225
Glutamine 185
Glycine 262
Histidine 284
Isoleucine 285
Leucine 295
Lysine 225
Methionine 283
Phenylalanine 283
Proline 220
Serine 228
Threonine 235
Tryptophan 290
Tyrosine 342
Valine 315

For discussion

The heating period is kept short because copolymerization proceeds much more quickly at 200 C than at 65 C.
It only takes a couple of hours to obtain the same amount of proteinoid at 200 C that one would obtain after 81 days at 65 C. The only concern with heating at temperatures above 100 C is thermal breakdown of the resulting
proteinoids, but this takes longer than a couple of hours to have any significant result.

[jiritt0]

i highly doubt boiling water reaches any of those temperatures... lol

and the discussion part, i didnt even understand that.. ill need to get my thesaures (sp?) and dictionary out later..

[pu12en12g]

I'm going to go try the JD method right now... this is a very interesting discussion

[Stuart Rudolph]

i never asked if it enhanced effectiveness, i asked if it hindered effectiveness. it enhances mixing.

Oops sorry, I was still very groggy this morning when I posted, and I misread.

[pu12en12g]

It definately dissolves fast in hot water... didn't even have to boil it... but I still prefer the powder + chase method by FAR....

[Blap]

Heating up creatine to fully dissolve it was the original preferred method, so right now I'm with Blap on this one... I've been looking into this topic... but haven't replied yet because I'm not sure.

Heating up BCAA / EAA never occured to me before

The creatine thing is a good point. I'm also glad you posted the degredation temperatures- I was hoping I wouldn't have to dig those out of an old and dusty chem book!!

I've tried to bring this up on bb.com a couple of times, but no-one's ever been interested. I don't understand this 'fear' constantly surrounding degrading protein. OMG OMG don't microwave, boil, cook anything- that shit'll degrade yo and be useless!!

As long as the amino structure remains intact, what's the difference? If anything it should make digestion a more efficient process, as far as my current knowledge/understanding goes.

Interesting discussion indeed!!

[Controlled Labs]

The creatine thing is a good point. I'm also glad you posted the degredation temperatures- I was hoping I wouldn't have to dig those out of an old and dusty chem book!!

I've tried to bring this up on bb.com a couple of times, but no-one's ever been interested. I don't understand this 'fear' constantly surrounding degrading protein. OMG OMG don't microwave, boil, cook anything- that shit'll degrade yo and be useless!!

As long as the amino structure remains intact, what's the difference? If anything it should make digestion a more efficient process, as far as my current knowledge/understanding goes.

Interesting discussion indeed!!

that is interesting. isnt protein more delicate when it comes to heating versus aminos in free form?

[Blap]

that is interesting. isnt protein more delicate when it comes to heating versus aminos in free form?

In what sense?

The structure of protein will break down way before the actual aminos will- the bonds holding the more complex shape (H-bonds, dissulphide bridges and other fancy things I learned about in school) are much weaker. But once the quaternary (if it's an enzyme or receptor or whatever), teriary and secondary structures have broken down you're still essentially left with a string of intact amino acids.

[Blap]

I've tried to bring this up on bb.com a couple of times, but no-one's ever been interested.

Although no-one at bb.com's ever been interested, I got into a similar discussion with someone on one of the UK forums. We were in basic agreement on the denaturing issue, although he did go off on a long rant;

Since the digestion process results in absorbable single amino acids (from proteins via pepsin/pancreatic proteases etc) what's the difference if the start product is denatured or not?

I would guess it is, as I described, because the phrase gets over-used by marketing departments and not nutritionist. Using my analogy earlier if a piece of raw meat is as nature intended and you cook it to make it edible you, by the strictest of definitions - dentaure it. However, from a human digestive tract point of view it's still usuable. If you overcooked it - til it burnt - it would become so denatured as to be useless. Egg powder is good but would be considered denatured compared to a egg itself. Ditto skimmed milk powder to liquid skimmed milk.

Pure whey is literally the clear liquid which forms at the top of a starting to turn milk. It is about 30% but that's little better than tuna. The Ion exchange process uses both acid and Ions to seperate the basic constitunents into a higher protein which is then dried, sprayed etc into the familier powder. It is especially good for most WPI's. However, it ''denatures'' the Whey too much and takes out all the better properties that some WPC anbd WPI's have.

A food scientists (some articles refer to this) would look for a good short, medium and long chain amino profile (inc branch chain etc). The better balance a product has in ratios which are either close to the human muscle tissue (vis the theory behind Ravager 4 and other multi-blend products etc) or in a form which we use well (for example high in L-Glutamine post workout).

The reality, as I mentioned a week or so ago, is that your needs change through the day according both to time and stress (training being one form). In an ideal world a machine in your house would mix up both food and drinks specific to your needs as and when the drink was required. There is also some thought that the blood stream can hold for a few hours various forms to go where required. Hence the thinking that you 1) eat as wide a group of WHOLE FOODs and SOLID FOOD PROTEINS first and then and only then SUPPLEMENT with protein. 2) secondly, in spite of occasional marketing leading you to beleive otherwise a £50.00 tub of 'super' protein isn't 2-3 times as effective as a cheap bulk WPC. It is arguably 10% better at best. This is why I ask why people over concern themselves with amino acid profiles and balances when no single product does the job - not whole food not supplement. It's the same again with natured or denatured - it is a nice idea but how much of a difference do we think it makes? 1%? More? Less?

You also need to think of food and supplements as a tool and work around your own needs and requirements. If you are normally very healthy then having the added benefit of the immune enhancing properties of some of the better WPC's isn't outweighed by the simple fact that you may well be lactose intolerant and so can only use a Ion-Exchanged high in protein but low in lactose WPI. Just as an aside I come across the odd strange problem when talking to customers when they place orders over the phone and one was a guy who had terrible problems with carbs during the day when he was working but no problems at night. I'd normally say carb heavy in the am and protein heavy in the PM but if it wasn't gonna work for him - **** just change it around - it's not the end of the world. Yet he was spending too much time looking for a carb solution or alternative. Screw that just have a starchy and fibrous carbs heavy meal late in the day. We can and do overcomplicate thinks sometimes. One US guy on this forum had spent two weeks umming and ahhing over two products and so was training with a low protein level diet and I said I'd have ate whatever for the two weeks rather than worried and gone without. I have also noticed that those that worry about these things the most are, honestly, mostly skinny or under the weight they wanna be. GET IT DOWN YER NECKS. Buy the perfect food when you are training for a competition or win the lotto.

Food marketing can be amusing. Both CNP and Reflex made some milage out of the differing forms/source of carbs. Both were right but only in the context in which the ingredients were used. For example CNP correctly stated that malto, when used in conjunction with other ingredients is as good as any of the ground oats etc that some are adding to their home made MRP's. Not as a standalone product perhaps but when added to a list of healthy ingredients. Yet people in this forum still ask what's the best kind - activated barley etc etc. It adds to the confusion.

So some companies will market their product as containing 'undenartured whey protein' but avoid, as they should, saying it is better and by how much. The customer thinks 'it must be better' but doesn't know why 'otherwise they wouldn't mention it'. Even it it might be true is it that much better that we ought to worry? Nah. I'd still prefer a WPC over a WPI and I suggest reading the MT article on the subject for why.

A little off topic but one other thing to look out for is a protein product containing WPC to which WPI has been added along with 'added aminos and L-Glutamine' or which is marketed as contain ing the aminos and L-Glutamine (already there anyway). The ones to which these have been added often contain no more protein as a percentage than most WPC's - around 80-84% or 80-84g protein per 100g powder. Yet they have added WPI etc? So how piss poor was it to begin with or how much additives and other extras have been added to lower the percentage so much they needed to jack it back up to the market average for WPC by adding back in WPI etc?

Again - the way 'dentaured' or 'undenatured' should be used is only 1) as close to the original form as possible or 2) using a less harsh production/manufacturing process so as to keep the better fractions intact. In spite of my occasional comments re marketing we do well in the UK in the supplement sector compared to say the high street big shops over processed microwavable food market. Short of using very low grade WPC (60% and under) or worse a whey powder (about 30% protein) the raw material cost of WPC is, IMO, difficult to **** up without just being plain greedy or over-complicating a product (some of the bigger companies add a cellulose as a means of making their products creamy - it keeps the protein levels high but isn't all that as a protein or making the product do what we want it to when we buy it - and don't get me started on the thickeners used.

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by Some British Guy

LMFAO I'm getting a sideache...

[Blap]

LMFAO I'm getting a sideache...

hah- I told Tank that extending the edit time would pay off. That wasn't as funny when originally posted!!

[Controlled Labs]

hah- I told Tank that extending the edit time would pay off. That wasn't as funny when originally posted!!

haha nice, I like the "some british guy"